Matt Smith, Founder & CEO of Snooze Mattress & Wellness

Guest: Matt Smith, Founder & CEO, Snooze Mattress & Wellness

Host: Chris Hatch

Listen on Spotify

Summary

Chris Hatch talks with Matt Smith, founder and CEO of Snooze Mattress & Wellness, a Pueblo, Colorado-based "sleep shop" franchise expecting to grow from about 15 stores to 75 to 100 by year-end, with its first international store open in Ireland. Matt shares his path from selling cell phones in a Walmart kiosk to 18 years with Denver Mattress Company, owning nearly a dozen local businesses, and starring alongside Grant Cardone on Undercover Billionaire. He explains why mattress stores can afford A-plus corners, what Snooze looks for in sites and franchisees, how converting mom-and-pop stores speeds growth, and why health and wellness (ice baths included) is the brand's edge.

Key Takeaways

• Mattress economics explain the hard corners. One customer a day at about $2,739 makes a $1 million store, with high margins, few employees and very little parking demand, which landlords like.

• Snooze stores average about 3,500 square feet (3,500 to 4,500 is ideal). They're a simple box that fits most prior retail, and they range from 1,700 to 9,000 square feet.

• Snooze looks for co-tenancy with shoppers who spend: Lululemon-type traffic rather than dollar-store traffic. Growing communities where Snooze can get in first are also good targets.

• Converting existing mom-and-pop mattress stores and taking over A-plus spaces from retailers that are pulling back gets Snooze into strong locations faster.

• Franchisee non-negotiables: be a good human, have grit and be coachable. Many franchisees are proven multi-unit operators from brands like Jimmy John's and Domino's.

• Getting into Snooze costs about $250,000 plus real estate, and the brand is SBA-approved. Lenders who specialize in franchising are welcome to reach out.

• Relationships still win deals. Brokers with deep landlord relationships find sites before they hit the market, and sometimes the right answer is to be patient.

Transcript

Editor's note: Several product names (Smart Life, Ultimate Human) are spelled from the audio and should be confirmed.

[01:45] Chris Hatch: Welcome back to the Dirt Dog Pod. Today we have Matt Smith, founder and CEO of Snooze Mattress & Wellness. Matt, thanks for joining us on the pod.

[01:59] Matt Smith: Fired up. Thanks for having me, Chris.

[02:00] Chris Hatch: Yeah. You know, you are a legend in the sleep industry, right?

[02:09] Matt Smith: I don't know if I should call it a legend, I've been in the sleep game for a long time, 25 years. Yeah.

[02:13] Chris Hatch: 25 years. Yeah. So tell us about that. Where did you start? Did you start hawking mattresses in college or high school, 25 years ago?

[02:22] Matt Smith: It was right in between. It was actually right when I was going into college. I was 19 years old. I was selling cell phones in a Walmart kiosk and got recruited into the mattress business and raised by a single mom. Never really saw money until I got my first mattress commission check. And I thought I was the richest kid at 19 years old on planet Earth. So the rest is history. So I got in at 19 and been in for 25 years now.

[02:45] Chris Hatch: What Walmart were you working at?

[02:48] Matt Smith: Pueblo Northside, it's not there anymore. Yeah, yeah.

[02:53] Chris Hatch: Okay, so Pueblo, Colorado Walmart and you're slinging cell phones at age 19.

[02:59] Matt Smith: Selling cell phones, yeah.

[03:00] Chris Hatch: Yeah. And then you moved out and which mattress company was it? Where'd you get your first commission?

[03:04] Matt Smith: A company called Denver Mattress Company. I actually worked for them for 18 years, helping them grow around the country. They had 10 stores when I started, about 110 when I left, and I got into the franchise game at 25. Long story short, I saw the mattress side of it, enjoyed that, started buying real estate at 20, 21, trying to figure out the money game and then at 25, around 2007, the economy kind of tanked and I bought a franchise and then learned the franchise business for the last 20 years. I've learned the mattress business for 25 years and really saw the best and the worst in both and Snooze was born to help disrupt both of those industries and change the game of sleep and health and change the game of franchising. So that's where we're at and that's where we're going.

[03:51] Chris Hatch: So I don't know about a lot of the people that might be listening to this, but I look back at Chris Hatch when he was 20, and I didn't know where I was going in life per se. And by 25, I had figured out that I like brokerage, and I was doing commercial real estate brokerage. And I was like, OK, this retail hustle is something. How do you come from a single parent household and then just boom, And then all of a sudden you're just driven? Who was your mentor?

[04:01] Matt Smith: I think I read a lot. I think the story really is, I didn't have a father. I didn't know him for 20 years. We were, we had no money. We were broke all the time. So I swore that I was going to figure those two things out. I was going to overcompensate for being the best father I could ever be in life. And I wanted to figure out this money thing, you know? And I think growing up, I read books, I watched things and I watched my mom struggle financially, not having the money. And I just swore it. I think I was selling bubble gum out of my locker at 13 years old and 14 years old had a paper route at 12, and then kept climbing to Discount Tire.

I did so many different things by 19, before I even got in the mattress game, but I was determined to learn it. And then when I started making money, I was determined to figure out how to make that money work for me because I'd read so many books on that Instead of, oh, let's go buy a car, I was like, I'm going to tuck this away and buy some real estate. My mom never owned a house and then I bought a house it was just cool to be able to see that. What my mom never had in money, she absolutely made up for in love so it was, I wouldn't change any of it for the world, but I think I just was driven to figure it out.

And I built that muscle in Pueblo alone. I think I've owned nine businesses here, maybe 10, in everything from tuxedos to carpet cleaning, to spas, to gyms, to all kinds of stuff. But I just kept, I was that idiot that was like, Oh, I'll try that. There's a gap there. I'm going to go try this. I'm going to build this muscle. But I was selling mattresses by day while I was doing all this other stuff on the side. So I think it's the grit, just wanting to figure it out.

[05:42] Chris Hatch: Yeah, I love every second of that. True first gen. Yeah.

[05:46] Matt Smith: Yep, first gen, 100%, tried and true.

[05:50] Chris Hatch: Yeah, good for you. I like to say I got a long ways by standing on the shoulders of a lot of people before me. But you can't teach grit, right? That's the amazing thing. You know what I mean? It's got to come from somewhere.

[05:55] Matt Smith: No, and it's true. I just actually finished. I'm about to launch a children's book. I could even show it here in a second, but it's called Don't Hit the Snooze Button. It's a children's book and the whole book, the premise is teaching kids grit and not hitting the snooze button on life in general, because I think love and grit are probably the two most important things you can teach your children, I think. And grit's one of those things that if you're 30 years old, I don't know how you teach a 30 year old grit, you know I mean? Put their back against the wall? But really, you learn that through life, wanting to win at sports or whatever your thing is. It'll get you through life, you know?

[06:34] Chris Hatch: I was getting our household up last week, like Wednesday morning or something. And it came to my realization that my oldest two teenagers were both up before 6 a.m. And then I had my next two kids age 12 and age 9, also getting up before 6:30. And I was like there's just something to that, right? If kids are getting themselves up at that time of day, I don't think we're going to need to spend a whole lot of time trying to teach these kids how to work hard when they grow into adults.

[07:01] Matt Smith: No, you're right. And it's hard, and the newer generations too, there's a lot more video games, there's a lot more things out there. So we've got to make sure there's that. If you put in the work, life's going to be a lot easier and a lot more fun. Don't blame everybody. Take responsibility.

[07:15] Chris Hatch: So you were with Denver Mattress Company for 19 years? You did, and they got up to about 110 locations on exit. And then did you, from there, did you decide you wanted to start something on your own on the Snooze side or how did Snooze come to be?

[07:21] Matt Smith: 18. So essentially, I was building the largest gym, I think in the system with Snap Fitness in Pueblo West and I was still working by day and I just, my son was, my first kid was about to turn two. And I committed to my wife. I was like, when it matters to our kids, I'll retire from this retail schedule and I'll do it on our own. And I think somewhere around two to three years old, my daughter was being born, my son was born. So they're a year apart. Or 13 months apart. That was the moment that I'm like, okay, this is the moment I'm just, I'm going to go bet on myself.

I owned a bunch of businesses at the time, and they were all working-ish, but I was building somebody else's business. So I walked away and bet on the gym side of it. And it didn't take me very long to go. All right. I missed the mattress game and the sleep game. And if there's anything that I can say that I probably would go toe to toe with anybody in the industry would be mattresses and sleep and health. And probably six months in, a building came up for sale right next to my gym. And I was like, all right, God's telling me something. This is the moment.

So, and I had my realtor go over there and said, go see what somebody's talking about over there. And it was like, somebody wanted to put a mattress store here. I was like, no, they're not on my turf. So I bought the building within a couple of days and rest is history and got back into it, called the Denver Mattress guys let them know what we were doing. And yeah, kind of combine the models of franchising and sleep and health.

[08:58] Chris Hatch: I love it. So as you went into mattresses, did you already know manufacturers? It's not like you just go buy that off the shelf, right?

[09:08] Matt Smith: I had a good relationship with some, but this was a new muscle. I didn't understand this side of the business. You know, Tempur-Pedic is probably the biggest out there and they were one where I was like, I just hope I can get those guys. You know if I can get those guys, I'm going to figure this all out because I sold a lot of them and I was a big believer in them and I'll never forget. You know when they came out and they met me and they were like man, we wouldn't normally go into this location and this demographics, but because of your history, we'll let you go ahead and do it.

And we blew every number they ever thought was possible out the water and they were like alright, go wherever you want to go. You know, we trust you. Your system works. You're different than the rest. So at that point, we just built relationships. It does take a while to learn the other side of the business. I think when you're in the sales side, the management side, and then you have to go back to the other side, it's a whole different game. You know, learning all the ordering and financials and all that side of it. But it's been a blast.

[09:58] Chris Hatch: Yeah. When did you open that location? How long ago was that?

[10:02] Matt Smith: 2019, Black Friday. And then that store was open about two years. And then we started franchising right around COVID in the COVID era is when we started franchising. So we've been franchising about three years.

[10:16] Chris Hatch: And what's it like to move from running your own stores to going into the franchise model? Because obviously that's different.

[10:23] Matt Smith: Oh, it's night and day. Yeah, it's a blessing, but there's a lot. It's a big difference when you're now in the people business and the helping other people grow business and you're out of the mattress business and it's been a blessing. I think we've got just the most incredible franchisees, but I had a lot to learn. You know, I think now my absolute three non-negotiables that we had to learn through the process is you got to be a good human. Like I'm only going to do business with good people. I don't care how much money you've got, if you're not good people, we don't want to do business with, you know.

Two, you got to have grit as we just talked about. Like without grit, this isn't going to work. I'll give you the best system and processes. Everybody sleeps. There's a lot of money being made in the mattress game, but you got to put in the work, you know? And three is just coachable. You know, if you follow the systems and processes on a daily basis, you're going to make money and you're going to have fun and change a lot of lives. But if you don't, just like anything but I always tell everybody else like we're as coachable as it gets too, Chris. If you got a better idea than what we're doing right now, I'll change it tomorrow.

The way we disrupt the industry is by doing what Tesla did and Nike did and Facebook did, not what another mattress store did and got good at. Like we need to bring in other industries and that's really where health and wellness is coming in. We're the first of our kind.

[11:30] Chris Hatch: And where do you find, so given those qualities that you just rattled off, what is the typical, where do you find the franchisees? Are they typically operators of other businesses? Are they new to the business side of the franchise side of things or?

[11:43] Matt Smith: I think the grit part of it is definitely what we've learned. They've been in other businesses. Our guys in North Carolina are one of the top Jimmy John's performers. They got 25 Jimmy John's, 24 Jimmy John's, our guys in Dallas, we've got different parts of Texas. One guy owns Domino's pizzas all over the country. We've got one of the top OsteoStrong guys in Missouri. So people that have got some kind of a proven history. Because the reality of franchising and why I say we're disrupting franchising is when you get into franchising, I mean, most of the franchises are a lot of fast food. Low margins, high employees.

Get 30, 40 employees in one of these stores and you're making three to 5%. if you're doing good. It's a lot of work and your owners get stuck working in the business versus on the business. Because there's just turnover and all this different chaos inside of there. Where with us, you got two people, they're wearing pajamas. They're changing people's lives every day for a living. They're having fun. They're commission based. They can make some good money and they're scaling. And the reality is everybody sleeps. They don't all go to the gym. They might not like sandwiches. They might like pizza, but they all sleep. So it really is how hard you want to work.

With the evolution of where we're at it's now health and wellness. We're doing ice baths with Gary Brecka, where we'll be the first to do in-home sleep apnea tests in the store. We custom fit you through technology trusted by the Mayo Clinic to find out what kind of a mattress that your body needs. So the whole thing is a sleep journey. It's not a mattress store. And sometimes it's compression sleeves or it's melatonin or it might be something that's not even a mattress that's going to help you sleep at night. And that's our mission is How do we bring all this technology into a sleep shop and help you sleep better because it's an underrated thing in this world. Everybody's got to sleep. It affects everything we do.

[13:21] Chris Hatch: We're 19 years into our marriage at my household. And so we just recently upgraded a whole bunch of mattresses. And I can tell you after going through the retailing side, honestly, if your sales folks and your franchisees are even just paying attention to the customer, you're like probably a couple levels ahead of all the competitors.

[13:38] Matt Smith: You're absolutely right. Yeah. This industry is not always known for being the best at customer service. And that's what I saw. I was on the frontline forever and it really is, Hey Chris, what's your price point? What size do you want? What do you feel? And okay, there's this one or this one. Which one works best for you, Chris? Try it out. Hopefully it works out. If not, let me know. And I can exchange it. Like that's the industry. And for us, it's like, Chris, I'm going to take you on a sleep journey. We do things differently. We don't just wear pajamas like these over here.

We're going to take you on a journey and find out what your body needs and talk about your sleep needs. And then we'll talk about the other side of it. So it's a completely different experience than anybody else has ever had. And we're very proud. It's fun. It's working.

[14:15] Chris Hatch: Yeah, that's fun. Okay, so as I announced to LinkedIn and Twitter and everywhere in the office here, who I had coming on as my guest today, I had a lot of people respond to me and just say, what is the deal? Why are there so many mattress stores and they're on the hard corners, right? How can they afford these rents, right? Like what is going on? A lot of speculation about it being drug fronts all kinds of wild things out there. So help us understand. It's a high-margin business, you've mentioned that, low employees. Does that allow you to have that space as your billboard? What's the thought process behind having that A-plus real estate?

[14:55] Matt Smith: Yeah, I mean, it's a combination of everything. I mean, if you zip the back of the king size mattresses, it's full of cocaine and meth and all that. I mean, we make sure that we hide that stuff really well when we're taking it across. But that is what everybody thinks for the record. Everybody says that. They won't find anything. It's OK. I'm just kidding. But no, really, like it is it's a high margin industry and everybody does sleep. So it really like when we.

[15:04] Chris Hatch: Don't post your home address here, okay? We don't need any FBI knocking your door down.

[15:24] Matt Smith: When you look at a mattress store, one customer a day at $2,739, you're a million dollar store. Two customers a day at that, you're a $2 million store and so on and so forth. And you do have high margins in the industry and, A plus locations make a difference. You know, I think when you look at a normal mattress store in Snooze is we're a sleep shop and we're really the only sleep shop that does a lot more than just what they do in a normal typical mattress store. But that is why you don't need a lot of employees. You don't have a lot of cars because even if you have a customer, there's only one car.

If there's two customers, two cars, where in a restaurant you got 50 cars out there. That's why landlords love us is because we don't take a lot of parking spots. It could be a lucrative business, and it doesn't take a lot of people to do it for sure.

[16:07] Chris Hatch: So I would assume more people buy mattresses probably on the weekends than they do during weekdays. And so what's a count you're trying to hit on a Saturday if I'm running a store in a good location? How many mattresses am I trying to move on a Saturday?

[16:22] Matt Smith: It depends on how long you've been in the business. It depends on where your location is. There's a lot of stuff there. Again, on a good Saturday or Sunday, if these stores are getting five customers plus, they're doing well. Five, 10 customers, you're crushing it. It's not like you don't need a lot. Three customers, you could do very well. Five customers, you can do very, very well. And it does. Some stores in A-plus locations are naturally getting five, 10 customers, and for some you've got to advertise and grow it and get the customer to know who you are, the community to know who you are.

And that's kind of one of our cheat codes is we are not only the only sleep shop in your community, but normally we're the only sleep shop where you're getting the buying power of a corporate, but you have a local owner there. Like it's a franchise. So everybody, the money stays in that community. We have a better warranty, better price, better system, better process. Everything is different. But your money stays there too. There's a local owner that's fighting for that to help change lives.

[17:18] Chris Hatch: We've had a handful of guests on. You're episode 16 on the Dirt Dog Pod. And we've had quite a few people on that are responsible for opening 50 to 100 stores a year. But I don't think we've ever had anybody on with as high of a growth rate as you're sitting at. How many stores are you sitting at today?

[17:34] Matt Smith: We're about 15, I think as of this moment. Somewhere in 15.

[17:39] Chris Hatch: And then what are you anticipating by year end in 2025?

[17:43] Matt Smith: If all goes well, I think we're opening eight or nine between this month and next month, but we have some acquisitions, some other things happening. We're thinking between 75 and 100 by the end of the year.

[17:55] Chris Hatch: It's a wild growth pace, right? Just tremendous. Okay, so how do you pick a good location? What do you do?

[18:02] Matt Smith: You know, AJ, the guy who introduced you to us, I mean, he's one of the best in the world, but it's really finding a high-traffic, good corner area. We look at demographics, too. We're not a company that wants to chase to the bottom. So we're not looking for an area that's a $299 queen-size customer. We do want something that's people that will invest in their sleep and overall health. Nowadays it's such a cheat code. You know, when I was back in my days, 20 years ago, opening stores, it's just throwing a dart. Ah, it's available. Let's make it work. You know, nowadays there's so much data and AI and so many different things to find out competitive nature, what's going on, growth rates, all that side of it.

So there is a lot of data. But that's probably the biggest challenge we have. We won't just open to open. We could have opened probably a lot more stores right now. if we just let people open to open, but we want to make sure the location makes sense for five, 10, 20 years.

[18:56] Chris Hatch: Let's go back to Anthony Johnson for a minute, Pegasus out of New Mexico. We both owe him five bucks and a Snickers for connecting us. So thank you, Anthony. Great. Yeah.

[19:06] Matt Smith: Thanks AJ, big shout out. Guy's amazing and he's always got the clothes. I mean, he's got style, man. Guy's always got the glasses, the match, the shirt. But yeah, he's an incredible guy and he knows his stuff. There's nobody that fights harder and that truly is as passionate about finding the right real estate for the right people.

[19:23] Chris Hatch: So when you look at that location and you're trying to determine if it's going to be good in five or 10 or 15 years, are you looking primarily just at the streets and how the traffic's flowing? Are you looking at co-tenancy? What are some of the kickers that kind of say, hey, look, this one's going to be better than that?

[19:41] Matt Smith: Both. I mean, co-tenancy is a big one. Is there retail co-tenancy? Are people spending money in this territory, in this area? There's a difference between traffic and our traffic. There's Big Lots traffic that might not complement us as well, or dollar store traffic that's not necessarily going to complement us, but then there's higher-end traffic, Lululemon kind of traffic or people that there's people that are out there spending the money and the energy. And then there's also like new communities when places are growing to get in there first. And right now this year, I mean, the industry's in an all-time chaotic time right now. So it's also been a cheat code for us to be able to move into mom-and-pop locations that can convert.

They don't know what they don't know. You know, there's mom and pops places that are still handwriting invoices for the last 20, 30 years. They're making money and they don't, they just don't, they don't have the buying power. They've never tried. They've never gotten all the stuff that they can do. So when we convert somebody to a Snooze, now it's not them against the world. They have a huge team. They've got buying power, they get somebody in every aspect to help them grow. It changes the whole entire thing. So we're looking at a lot of that stuff to, to get those numbers a little bit faster, because if we were trying to open 75 brand-new locations today, it'd be real tough because it just, the locations take sometimes it takes three months for a landlord to reach you back.

It's crazy out there. So hopefully that helps. But if somebody's pulling back and they're in an A plus location, we can go right into that store. Or if there's another mattress store that's pulling back right now.

[21:13] Chris Hatch: You know, we're sitting in the middle of tariff mania still, and let's hope that this is a flash in the pan. And hopefully even by the time this pod goes out, everything settles. That's my hope every day, though. How do you see the tariffs impacting things from a mattress standpoint?

[21:23] Matt Smith: I think it's more about buyer confidence than anything. I will tell you, in the mattress industry eight years ago, when Trump was in, tariffs heavily hit our industry. You know, when you had like Ashley home furniture, some of the biggest players were all made overseas. And when the tariffs started back then, Ashley's, I think the majority of their beds, almost a hundred percent of their furniture mattresses are now made here. And I can't say a hundred percent, but the majority of what we do is all made in the United States now. And that's just them as an example, but a lot was forced to come here two administrations ago, when those tariffs hit.

So we're very proud that a hundred percent of the mattresses in our stores are made in America. So it's not going to affect us on that side of it. There's a few bases and a few things that do come from overseas. That's all kind of getting exchanged and changed, but otherwise, yeah, we are very blessed that I don't think it's going to affect us in this industry, but it is definitely affecting the buyer's confidence. You know, there's different parts of the country that it's affecting more than others for sure.

[22:27] Chris Hatch: You mentioned as we were getting going here on the call today that you guys are also looking at some international expansion.

[22:33] Matt Smith: Yeah, I was in Ireland for spring break, three weeks ago, with my family and we just opened our first store internationally. So we've opened Ireland. We're working on our second, third in Ireland. We're working on three in London, UK. So we're going to be hitting it hard in that area. We've got interest in Canada and Saudi Arabia. I could keep going: El Salvador, there's a lot of different areas that we've got a lot of interest. So we're nurturing people from all over the world, just making sure we do it right. It's not about growing a thousand stores. It's doing it the right way and finding the right people to do it with.

So when we go out to other countries, if anybody is listening to this and looking, we'd be looking for like a master franchise where somebody would own that and develop that. So there is some boots on the ground. And we'll complement and help you any way we can. And that store in Ireland crushed it the first month they were open. It's just, it's different. I think in the United States, Snooze is doing something that has never been done before, but you look at somewhere like Ireland, they're like 30 or 40 years behind the United States on their sleep and their mattress sales and they don't even have an adjustable base under there.

It was really weird for me to do demos and get people out there because they don't even know what a base is. They don't know what Tempur-Pedic is. Like, okay, this is going to be fun. It's so different, but I think every culture is a little bit different on what they think about sleep. But reality is I've told all their salespeople there and all their vendors, because some of the vendors started talking us out of it. I'm like, they all put on underwear and socks every morning. They're the same humans as we are. They all need a good night's sleep, they just don't know it yet.

They're just used to walking in the store seeing prices and I'll just take that one, you know? So it's going to take a little bit of time to really help them understand, but it's definitely working out there. And I think it'll be a bigger opportunity out there for sure.

[24:10] Chris Hatch: You know, it is interesting when you're touring through Europe it's not uncommon, obviously, to see a lot of American brands and some of the tourist areas. But you don't see really any of our national mattress competitors there, right? Are any of them competing overseas, or is this a whole new blue ocean for you out there?

[24:28] Matt Smith: Yeah, it's 100% blue ocean. We are the only ones that have ever left the United States. I mean, even the big ones haven't even gone to Mexico or Canada. So we're the first, and that's all right. I like it that way.

[24:41] Chris Hatch: Yeah, no kidding. Well, wild growth rate and how fun that is. But you're a guy who dabbles in a lot of things, right? So tell us about some of the other things. What's keeping you busy these days besides just adding a casual 80 stores a year or whatever?

[25:00] Matt Smith: I think that's what's keeping us busy, just that. I mean, we just got a lot going on. We're very blessed for the growth, but just doing it wisely and doing it right with the right people. Our team is I'm the dumbest guy by far on the Snooze team here. We've just we've been blessed with hundreds of years of experience and franchising and mattresses. I just wrote a couple of books. My children's book is just about to launch, Don't Hit the Snooze Button. We're working with Gary Brecka on ice baths. We were launching those in the stores as of this weekend. And then we got some other top secret stuff that Gary and myself and Sage are working on.

That'll be awesome. I think it'll really help the health and wellness industry. So yeah, I mean, my main focus is this. I still own a gym and some other businesses, but I've sold everything to go all hands on making this thing grow and explode. You know, we say it on every call, 20 million people sleeping better because of Snooze nationally and 50 million people globally. And that is really our mission. How do we elevate the industry to talk more about sleep and health? How do we change the conversation from a mattress to sleep and overall health? And it's an undertaking, but we're, up for the challenge.

And I think that's always our mission. And I think that if I learned anything and it sounds like you're a serial guy too, that has a lot of business that are experienced and seen a lot of stuff. If I learned anything when I owned nine businesses, maybe seven at the same time, it's that I wasn't great at any of them. I was good at some stuff, but you're never going to dominate. It's like, if I don't focus a hundred percent of my efforts on Snooze, it's not going to be where it needs to be. So it really is our undivided attention.

[26:36] Chris Hatch: You know, selling ice baths in the retail showroom of an environment of mattresses makes a ton of sense, right? Because especially with your wellness angle. So have you been doing the ice baths for a while?

[26:48] Matt Smith: So I met Grant Cardone. I was on a show called Undercover Billionaire here in Pueblo for 90 days. Yeah. Through him. I met Gary Brecka and Gary was a speaker. Long story short, I have a captain's license. We were out in the British Virgin Islands and he was a speaker for us and we had a little, little event. I guess you'd call it. He got me onto Richard Branson's island. He's like, Matt, I surprised you. I got you on Branson's island. I was like, what? Because he's like a hero. And then the first morning we wake up, Gary goes, Hey, you want to go do an ice bath and some Wim Hof breathing and I was like, what does that even mean?

And it changed my life. Literally from that day forward, I have taken an ice bath every day. The mental side of it, I absolutely believe in it. And I've sold a lot of them to just people that see the health and wellness from what it's done. And if you think about sleep, starting in the morning, that's your cup of coffee. Or, like Sage Brecka, she does it at night before she goes to bed. So she's not sore and she sleeps better at night. But there's so much more to sleep than just a mattress. And I think that's been our mission. And I love that you say that you see it, because a lot of people were like, why would you put an ice bath inside of a mattress store or sleep shop?

Because it's health and wellness. We're doing [hyperbaric]. We're doing a lot of things that will help people sleep and feel better. That might not have to do with a mattress. So I'm a believer. Have you ever taken an ice bath?

[28:02] Chris Hatch: I've done the ice bath. Haven't made a habit of it though, but who knows? Maybe I just need to drop by one of your stores and get one of the baths.

[28:08] Matt Smith: I'm telling you, you will be able to get them. We have this Ultimate Human ice bath, powered by Snooze, that we're launching right now, but it's a sit down and you can do the breathing inside of it. There are health benefits. There's the adrenaline rush, the endorphin spike. There's so many things, but then beyond that, from an entrepreneur standpoint, I think Tony Robbins says it best. He's like, it's me telling my brain every day that I'm in control and this is going to be the hardest part of the day. And it's so real because I've taken 400 ice baths. And they still freaking suck, Chris.

They don't get better. You don't just go, oh, I'm used to this cold water. Every day, it's just like, ugh, you just lose your breath. You feel like it's fight or flight. It doesn't get easier, but it is the hardest part of my day every day, but I feel like a million bucks when I get out. I'm like, all right, let's go, day. So I highly recommend it. Good bed, good ice bath.

[28:55] Chris Hatch: I mean, for the most part, most of the customers I assume walking into a Snooze location already own a mattress. Is that a correct statement?

[29:03] Matt Smith: I would say that's probably correct, unless they're moving.

[29:10] Chris Hatch: But usually they have something they're upgrading, right? But to me, they're there for a better experience, right? And back to your point, you're selling good sleep, right? So why not cross sell a product that can also help with that? And that's, I think that's one of the most interesting things to think about is like, it's very difficult to come up with other products that are a good cross sale because what are you going to do? Sell maybe a pillow, right? You're not really there for sheets. You're not there for other things. I mean, you're there for an experience, right?

[29:21] Matt Smith: 100%. 100%. No, and that's, mean, you're there and really the customer's coming in. Even at my previous job, they'd come in and they're just, I'm in pain. I can't sleep. I don't care. Help. Like, what do I need to do? And, and I think too many stores are just, here's a bed, try this one, try this one. Okay. We helped. Like, no, that's not helping. What's your why? How do I help you find it? Because if you're a dad, you need more energy for your kids. If you're an entrepreneur, you need more energy to focus. If you're an athlete, you need to jump higher and run faster.

Sleep affects all of that, you know? So it really is. What are you doing to understand the sleep and health? And there's so much technology from Oura Rings to the sound of the room, smell of the room, darkness of the room so many different things that'll help you sleep at night if you really made it a priority. It adds years to your life and fights diseases and there's a lot to it. So it's definitely been our passion. Experience, for sure.

[30:27] Chris Hatch: Fascinating. All right, so how did you end up on Undercover Billionaire? What's that like?

[30:35] Matt Smith: I think it's on Hulu and Discovery Plus. It's probably everywhere at this point. Long story short, Grant Cardone was dropped off in Pueblo, Colorado. It was a beat up town down and out was the story that they told me and they got him... I think it was the producers. Anyway, there's a couple different producers and stuff that came through the town. And then they introduced me to Grant Cardone, who had an alias coming into this, but Grant Cardone was dropped off and he said, hey, I'm open in a business. I'm looking for something. He kind of went through the entire community and said, this is what I'm trying to do.

And the community was like, hey, if you want to open a business, go to that idiot, Matt Smith. He's opened a ton of them and he loves to do this. He's probably a guy you should talk to. So I showed up to my own gym. I'm not kidding when I say there's probably 10 cameras on me. There's drones all over the place. I signed a waiver to walk into my own gym and, I was like, okay, what's happening here? And this Lewis Curtis guy comes over. He's like, Hey, he's bald and totally looks different than Grant. And, the rest is history. You know, we, ended up opening a business.

We spent 90 days together. It was right before COVID. Like five days into COVID. He left for COVID and then ended up coming back to finalize the show. during COVID. And we started this business called Wake Up Pueblo. The American dream is alive. It was all real. The majority of it is real; some timelines, a few things, were off, but the majority of it was really two guys building the business and showing the world that you can start something from nothing and, put the grit in like we've talked about. So Grant and myself opened Wake Up Pueblo, in this building that I'm in right now.

It was a, it was a marketing company. And then I've transitioned that a lot more into Snooze now at this point. It's fun. It's a blessing. I was followed around for 90 days. All day, every day, on camera. They followed me everywhere I went but it wasn't really about me. It was all undercover the whole time. So they're with me and my family and then they're with him and then they bring us back together, but they would always pretend that they're not with him. They did an incredible job. The Discovery Channel had fake names, fake aliases, fake business cards, fake social media pages. It was crazy, but they did a good job.

[32:45] Chris Hatch: Could you tell? I mean, I assume you could tell who it was, right? I mean, he's got a recognizable face, right?

[32:52] Matt Smith: No. Back then, he was bald. He's big now. I mean, it was five years ago, I guess, at this point, four and a half years, five years ago. Four years ago. But yeah, no, I mean, it was definitely, I mean, it's funny. Like you say that because we even did a pitch to a guy named Vern Larson. He was a local guy, and during the pitch and he was a broker and he goes, anyone ever tell you you look like Grant Cardone? He's bald and the cameras are there and Grant was like, if I had that guy's money, I wouldn't be sitting here with you, would I?

And Vern was like, no, you're right. There's no way you're Grant Cardone in this office. And, there was a couple of like weird little things like that, but it was like, they just did an incredible job. They really did a good job covering everything up and making sure. And even after the fact, Vern's like, son of a gun, I had Grant Cardone in my office. I called it out and I let it fly right by. So anyway.

[33:39] Chris Hatch: That's funny. He's a guy with a ton of energy. What was he like to hang with off camera?

[33:48] Matt Smith: He's a guy with a ton of energy. He is who you see. You know, I do believe deep down Grant's an incredible guy. He's infectious. He's done a lot of crazy things out there and he continues to do a lot of crazy things, but he's inspired a lot of people and I think he runs fast and hard and, probably one of the biggest takeaways, We were just talking about it at the beginning of this, but he told me one time, you know the difference in your problems and my problems, Matt? And I'm like, I don't know the difference. He's like, you've got all these businesses, all this stuff.

Mine might have more zeros behind them, and a jet. Other than that, they're the same d*mn problems. And I'm like, it's true. He's like, just go for more zeros. You know, like that was a big thing. And it's I think the American way is we think so small sometimes. I mean, some don't, but we think like, if I could just get this, but if you think so big, you inspire so many more, you do so much more. But really, we all got the same problems you and I talked about that at beginning, I think.

[34:43] Chris Hatch: Honestly, we are both born salespeople, right? So the solution that both of us have in our heads at all times is more sales. It always ends up good, but it doesn't necessarily mean there'll be fewer problems.

[34:57] Matt Smith: Yeah, 100%. And there's always going to be challenges. Like if it was easy, everybody would do it. And that's the reality. And I think even with franchising, it's all new challenges for us and a lot of new things that we're doing. It's one foot in front of the other, and burning the boats. I tell everybody that. Like if they could just commit to the burning of the boats, like that's the biggest thing when anybody tiptoes in entrepreneurship, it ain't going to work. This sh*t is not for everybody. But if you go all in, you'll make it work 100%. You better yourself.

[35:24] Chris Hatch: Yeah, you got to dive in.

[35:47] Matt Smith: Okay. That makes sense. So I probably could have gotten more into the real estate side of what we're looking for. Why landlords like us. And even financing, you how people are getting qualified for this if you've got people out there. Because we have some that own their own buildings, we have some that are renting buildings.

[36:10] Chris Hatch: More franchise support. Could keep talking about that. Dive in there.

[36:15] Matt Smith: Franchise support, yeah. Trying to think if there's anything else, I mean, what we're doing. I think we've covered.

[36:25] Chris Hatch: You still own the company. Have you sold to a PE partner or offered some of your equity yet?

[36:31] Matt Smith: No. We might do a round, but I'm not selling. I'm not for sale. We've had some people offer, but I'm on the four-yard line. Got a long way to go. And I'm having too much fun.

[36:41] Chris Hatch: Yeah, you're going to have a nice payday, it looks like, where you're headed. Okay, back to that Snooze location, right? And so, okay, let's just say that I've signed up with you and I want to open a couple of locations, right? And I found a good trade area where you don't have coverage right now. So I want to dive in and buy. What am I looking for? How big are your stores?

[36:45] Matt Smith: Our stores, it's a good question. I think the average store is about 3,500 square feet. 3,500 to 4,500 is ideal for us in a great spot but we're easy. We're just a box there's no, no need for food or grills or anything like that. It's just a giant box. So any kind of prior retail works. Our Albuquerque location is 7,000 square feet, our Ireland location is probably around 9,000 square feet. So we would go in bigger if the rent made sense. But we don't need that big sometimes too big is too much in our industry So, you know you get confusing when you have too many beds on the floor for a customer consumer I think 4,000 to 4,500 is probably a good sweet spot for us.

Our Woodland Park location is 1,700 square feet So it's small but they're in a great spot. It's a small little community and they're doing very well. So it just depends. Everybody sleeps, so we want to be in a good buying location for sure, but we don't need a lot. We're pretty low maintenance.

[38:11] Chris Hatch: With your emphasis on wellness and experience, do you prefer to go by kind of the traditional approach, I think, was to go, if you're a mattress retailer, to go locate by a bunch of furniture sales, right? So big furniture stores, et cetera. Is that your preference, or do you like more like a regional mall or somewhere else where you got more activity that's just casual customer profile, like apparel?

[38:32] Matt Smith: I think either/or. If you're right in the heart of it and there's availability there, sometimes there's lockouts, but if there is availability in the heart, we're going to beat that experience all day long. You know, we'll win nine out of 10. And we'll help elevate that whole area because we're going to advertise differently and we're in a different side of clients. So everybody's going to win. You know, I've always said that when we go into a community from a mattress, I'm best friends with everybody in this industry. It's like, the pie is here. Snooze's goal is to grow the pie. It's not to take from the pie.

You know, it's like, how do we change the conversation where everybody wins? So getting inside of that is good for us, or being away where there's nobody at all. One or the other where there's a lot of communities being built out and there's a lot of houses and stuff, but there's not anything. So, I think one of the high traffic areas like our one in Fort Collins is a big outdoor walking area. Got 400 people walking by a day or an hour. That's big, because everybody sleeps. We do state fairs, our franchisees do, we just did the, Castle Rock, fair of some sort, but we do fairs.

You know, we do Airbnbs, hotels, like there's, there is endless. Just getting into the right communities and, a visible spot. So you don't pay all that advertising. So either/or.

[39:40] Chris Hatch: Yeah, with your franchise support that you're talking about, how you're more in the people business, I think is how you stated it, right? And helping them encourage them. You know, a lot of the expansion I found that has been a little bit challenging over the last few years is just we have way less space than the retailers want to occupy. So how are you getting deals done? There's only so many of those A plus intersections that work well for a mattress location. How do you make sure that you get it versus a corporate competitor? How do you make sure you're getting it versus some other publicly traded company? How does that process work?

[40:16] Matt Smith: Yeah, no, that's a great question. And I think having the guys on our team, like Bruce and AJ are just incredible to find those deals that are not happening and that are happening before they happen. But landlords like us because we don't take up a lot of, there's no real risk in the build outs. We don't take a lot of parking spots. We don't take a lot of traffic coming in and out of there. Like we said, we only had three, four customers a day would be doing very well. So I think all of that, compared to the other guys out there... we're locally owned and operated.

We're bringing in the right franchisees that have that income and have that ability to get there. What we've been blessed with is, if there's another store in retail in general, that might be going out. Like we know some of the people have gone bankrupt that have A-plus locations, or some vitamin places. There's some mattress places. There's some stuff like that, that it's an easy transition where we can go right in there. And if we know it before it's even happening, Like in Omaha, they're on their third location right now and they're still looking for fourth and fifth. They'll stay stagnant. I wouldn't say stagnant, but they'll stay until something pops up to get the right location.

And then they'll make it work because what happens in our environment is when you get to four or five stores in that Omaha area, well, everything is more profitable. Your advertising goes down, the cost of goods goes down, the cost of employees goes down. Now maybe even going into a B plus or an A location versus an A plus is going to be fine because You're branded very well in that area. So if that answers it, really, we've been blessed but we've also been patient. I mean, Arizona, we were going to go into two years ago and we never found a location. So we're, back at it again now, but we just could not.

That was at its all-time peak. I think two years ago there was 2% vacancy, and the 2%, when they came available, were stolen by some big guy before we even got on the market, but that's changed a little bit. Sometimes we just got to be patient too.

[42:08] Chris Hatch: Yeah, it's always amazing to me when people keep explaining to me how AI is going to take over site selection. And I just look at it and just say, we're a long ways out from seeing wherever that is going to happen. It's a lot about that aggressiveness of having those boots on the ground.

[42:25] Matt Smith: Yeah, 100%, and relationships. Chris, I think AJ and Bruce have had an incredible relationship with every landlord in the country and they've done this forever. So that that relationship will never be taken by AI knowing somebody down the street to say, Hey, what's it going to take? How can I help? What do we got to do over here? When's that available? Or can I help that landlord out? Because that guy's not paying his rent is there a win for everybody there? So I've got a guy flying in tomorrow that I'm meeting who just wants to do a walk up north. They still want to see it. You got to touch and feel and look at it, you know?

[42:55] Chris Hatch: Yeah, hard to replace that element of things, I think, right? There are a lot of lenders and mortgage brokers that listen to this. One of the other challenges that I think we keep seeing a lot of the franchise concepts facing is just finding appropriate financing So I assume with the category of where you are and the higher margin that you're probably an easier underwrite for a lot of these SBA lenders or mortgage brokers.

[43:58] Matt Smith: Yeah. And our cost to entry is so much less than everybody else. I mean, you can get into Snooze for $250K plus real estate, or less in a lot of cases, depending on the square footage and you're, some of these sandwich shops are a million, $1.5 million, $2 million just to build these things out, you know? So we're very inexpensive compared to them, From an SBA standpoint, as long as they're qualified... like our Myrtle Beach store, they bought it. You know, they bought the building, they rehabbed the building, they were going to rent out half of it. So there is from a lender standpoint, if there's anybody out there that's that specializes in this side of it as well too, we're always looking to extend our portfolio outside of just the SBA.

We're SBA-approved, we do a lot of work with SBA, and then there's some cash funded. But the craziest part is there's no such thing in Ireland or the UK. Obviously the SBA is small business America, but there's not even a program like that out there. Like there's just no way to finance, which is so crazy. It's cash only to build these businesses outside of there. So the United States is kind of a cheat code for entrepreneurs to take that risk over seven or 10 years. But we primarily do SBA private pay but we are very inexpensive and the risk is a lot different as long as you got the right entrepreneur out there.

So, if there is anybody looking or they have anybody out there that say, this would be a good opportunity. This person's got some money. They got some energy. They're good people. Send them our way. And vice versa, we would love if there's any lenders out there that are specializing in the franchising side of it as well too. I think in certain areas or nationally, we'd love to talk to you.

[45:34] Chris Hatch: You started off running at age 19, which is you're way ahead of a lot of us out there in the world. But if you had a chance to hop in the DeLorean, go back in time and talk to 19 year old Matt, what are you going to tell him?

[45:48] Matt Smith: Probably would have retired a lot earlier from the 18 year career path that I took I think that that 18 years was it was such a blessing because they were such an amazing company. Did good by them. They did good by me, but there was a loyalty that probably got in the way of the long-term. And I think I was so loyal to them that I was like, ah, a couple more years, another year. And I didn't bet on myself until I was in my mid thirties and all in on myself, which the day that I did everything made sense. I remember telling my banker and my wife, at the same time or two different times, and they were both like, Whoa, what are you doing?

You're leaving your what? And I was in the middle of building this building. It was a million-dollar budget trying to figure all that out. And then I quit my primary income and everybody was freaking out. But I knew that that moment that I just had to bet on myself. So definitely bet on yourself earlier. You know what I mean? You're going to fall on your face and continue to fall and it's you win or you learn. And I've learned a lot of lessons and I'll continue to learn lessons, but think big, run hard and bet on yourself. I mean, I think that would be the only takeaway.

You know, I mean, I did a lot on the side as I learned, but I always say, what if I left 10 years earlier? Where would that be? You know, what would have happened differently? But I didn't have the maturity. There are a lot of reasons why it didn't work out that way. Bet on yourself as soon as possible and don't stop till you get there.

[47:02] Chris Hatch: One of the things about entrepreneurism that I think is the scariest is the downs, the doldrums, right? That you're not going to make it. So no entrepreneur escapes this. What do you do to get yourself picked back up when you get kicked in the teeth?

[47:16] Matt Smith: An ice bath, I'm telling you man. But no, I mean, I will tell you that like even in my last year, even with Gary and some of these new relationships, I do a lot of meditation in the morning. I do things that I used to think, that's hippie stuff. I don't do that stuff. But now I find myself doing my morning, every day I do a morning routine and getting myself ready for the day. Because as an entrepreneur, one day you're like, we're going to buy a private jet. This is the best thing ever. The next day you're like, we're going under. It's all going to fail.

We're going to lose everything. And then the next day it's back. It's just, it's what you sign up for. It's an up and down, but it's such a blessing to be able to bet on yourself. And as long as you put in the work, it's going to work, you know? And yeah, so definitely that.

[48:03] Chris Hatch: Love that. As we break, if we are walking into a Snooze store today, what mattress should I buy? If I'm looking for a king-size mattress replacement, what's the model? Is there one particular item you'd recommend over the others?

[48:19] Matt Smith: The beautiful thing about Snooze is, no, I mean, I think that that's the hardest question for me is like people like, well, what'd you sleep on? I slept on a Tempur forever. I slept on a [Smart Life]. Now it's an air bed. But I think that everybody is uniquely different and there's no one size fits all for anybody. So when you go into a Snooze, we're going to fit you, from here to here, for the pillow that you need. We're going to measure your body and your pressure points with technology the Mayo Clinic uses for burn victims. It will map you and your significant other, and we'll match the individual beds together, however we do that.

And then we're going to take you on a sleep journey. We're going to find everything that you need inside of there. So there's really no such thing as one size fits all. If anybody says this is the only bed for everybody, it's probably not because everybody's a little bit different and we all have unique things. Every eight years we gain weight, we lose weight, maybe a car accident, maybe you had a baby. Whatever life incidents happen also change, what kind of mattress that we may need as well too. So, it's not necessarily the most expensive wins There's a Drake bed for $750,000 here in America that you can go buy at Hästens, if you haven't been there, it's incredible.

It's crazy, but handmade, all these different things. So yeah, it's not a one size fits all, but our commitment is to get you the right bed that fits into your body and your budget and every way we can. And then maybe it's something else that you need outside of a mattress.

[49:33] Chris Hatch: Hey Porter, is it going to be weird if I ask you to go on a sleep journey with me this afternoon? Field trip? A little weird? All right. Matt Smith, founder and CEO of Snooze Mattress & Wellness. Thank you for joining us today on the Dirt Dog Pod. We appreciate it.

[49:38] Matt Smith: Thank you. Absolute pleasure. Keep crushing it out there. Appreciate your time, Chris.